I am hoping we can generate a good online conversation here. I'll be waiting for your posts between 10 a.m. and noon. Thanks for your participation!
Friday, July 12, 2013
Beyond this Material World II (online session)
I am hoping we can generate a good online conversation here. I'll be waiting for your posts between 10 a.m. and noon. Thanks for your participation!
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I am here... reading
ReplyDeleteThanks, Deirdre! I was just about to ask students to let me know when they logged in and saw the post. Anyone else online already? Hello--out there.
DeleteI just posted on the last blog, still need to read this one... but I'm online.
ReplyDeleteGood to know you are here. I also am reading...looking at Prothero right now.
DeleteOne of the compelling things I find about Confucianism is the way that it is a religion concerned about the here and now. There are many religions that put all their focus on the afterlife or God and they neglect their interpersonal relationships that are mandated by their own faith and society suffers for it.
ReplyDeleteConfucianism is all about the here and now. How you relate to others and creating a harmonious society. I think that is a very laudable focus, a focus that I think should shame many of us in the west.
Don't overlook religions that show us how to live today. Christianity tells us how to achieve heaven, but it gives many guidelines about how to live today and receive blessings in this life. The Ten Commandments are rules for living well in society today.
DeleteI think that compared to the two other religions we've looked at so far (Hinduism and Buddhism) your answer is right. Both seems to focus on getting rid of yourself and spend time meditating, clearing your mind, and Buddhism on sitting around not thinking. Neither focus on the life we've been given. But Confucianism seems to focus more on living life- what can I do to change things, how can I best lead by example, how can I expect others to follow me if I don’t have knowledge and understanding first?
DeleteI agree. Confucianism tells us how to treat others with respect a lot and how to life now. I guest maybe all they next to focus on is this life.
DeleteThanks, David. What think you others about this?
ReplyDeleteDeirdre notes there's much "this world" content to Christianity, and preachers do warn against being "so heavenly minded you're no earthly good." I rarely hear a sermon that doesn't have plenty of instruction on personal and societal relationships. And yet, like David, as I read the Prothero chapter on Confucianism, I'm struck by the feeling that there is something here to be admired, and something lacking in *contemporary* Western society.
ReplyDeleteDeirdre does make a point that christianity as a whole should not be judged because many of the people who proscribe to it don't always follow it completely...we are human after all. However, perhaps this thing missing in western society is that we are so focused on self and us, where eastern society and Confucianism has acknowledged that because no one lives completely in isolation that we need to focus on how we treat one another. It is a very practical approach to ending conflict and chaos. Trying to curb conflict by nipping the sources of it in the bud.
DeleteGood morning, Christina! Welcome to the conversation!
ReplyDeleteI like the emphasis for education and respect. I think one of the most important (if not the most important) value for a society is education. What could be more important than educating the next generation?
ReplyDeleteRespect is very important, but it should go both ways, not just for elders but among peers, workers, and for the student, certainly understanding the context of the relationship and inexperience of the students. I believe we are all equal, yet very different in so many ways.
exactly everyone has responsibilities in the relationship. I particularly like how they reference the role of leaders/rulers is to protect and provide for their people. While the people respect and defer to their leaders because they supposedly have their best interest in heart.
DeleteI have encountered a lot of Asian thought and culture through exposure to Anime and Manga (Animation and graphic novels from Japan) and Confucianism demystifies why people seems to act so differently from western approaches to situations. This aspect for me has also opened my eyes to why China can function as it does today.
I think there is a loss in America for respecting rulers. I may not agree with a president, but I still respect him and his office. I can see the good things he does even though I do not like other works of his. America and its media is destroying this. Bashing the president is getting so common no matter whether we have a republican or democrat, the disrespect is alarming.
DeleteDavid and Deirdre...do you think that perhaps what's lacking in the West *now* in terms of social interaction is that, unlike the Confucians, we don't any longer have a shared sense of what relationships should be? We have parents trying to be friends to their kids rather than parents, and confusion about things like husband/wife relationships.
ReplyDeleteI think that does play a role in it. We glorify individuality, change, questioning, and innovation in the west. This has led to many technological and other developments, but I think this focus on change being good and superior to stagnation may spill over into our relationships where parents feel enlightened by not acting like parents, but instead being a companion and friend to their children. I feel this only served to confuse children who ended up lacking the structure and guidance they need. We have whole generations that are struggling to find their role or place in society.
DeleteOh definitely. The breakdown of family and respecting elders of community has damaged America. We should do more of "do unto others..." and practice what we preach.
DeleteWe (American society) want our children to be happy - even if they misbehave or lose a game, that we will do anything to keep them happy, not necessarily do what is best for them in the long run. Same reason our pets are overweight - they like treats so keep giving them more! They can't play or roll over because they are so fat and they will die early. (Far stretched example)
I think it also depends on how much money your parents make as it will reflect on how you were raised. For example, my older brother and I were raised differently than my younger sister and brother because as my sister and brother were being raised when my family began to make a little more money, which came with more privilege to them. They grew up knowing they always had money and didn't need to worry about it at all, they were given more things than my older brother and I were growing up and this affected how we all were raised. My older brother and I learned to be happy without a whole lot and we tend to be more content than my younger siblings as well.
DeleteNow my sister and I are only about 3 years apart, but three years between a 9-year-old and a 6-year-old is pretty big (I choose those ages because that's when things in my family really began to change) and the first years in your life are really important when learning everything new.
This pursuit of happiness I agree is a fundamental problem. We have come to see our own and our children's happiness as the most noblest of virtues. Our society these days is certainly reflecting this selfish focus for what it is through it's fruits you might say.
DeleteAleya--I can really identify with the changing family circumstances impact on child-rearing. There's 21 years age difference between our oldest and youngest. Our oldest three lived the first part of their lives in low-income apartments. When we moved to Aberdeen, we finally had a house of our own. Nothing special by Aberdeen standards: a $45,000 100-year old house. But the kids when they first saw it ran from room to room. "I never thought I'd live in a place so grand," said one of them. Interestingly, though, it's my #4 child, raised when we were much better off financially, is the most frugal and least materialistic of my kids.
DeleteThat's a good way to put it. I see parents all the time becoming servants to their kids instead of being a leader and teaching them important things to know in life: like cleaning your room, putting dishes in the dishwasher, how to make a simple meal, etc.
DeleteOh-- I was responding to David's comment right then.
DeleteIt also comes down to the individual's perceptions. When we were young my mother was single and on food stamps. After we were adults my sister ask us if we thought we were dirt poor and my brother said, yes, we had nothing. I said, not really, we always had food and clothes, camping trips every now and then, and we had a supportive family (aunts,uncles, grandparents).
DeleteProthero describes how Confucianism works well with Daoist and Buddhism because they are not exclusive religions. Confucianism may not expand well where there are religions that people solely dedicate themselves like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It would not work well for people wanting to know about the after-life either.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian, I see value in the concepts of Confucius' wisdom, but would not put any of it to practice where it conflicts with the teachings of the Bible. The Golden Rule, respect, value of education, poetry of the beauty of earth and moon - all in! Divination - out!
Deirdre--I think you will find this both sad and amusing:
Deletehttp://divination.com/visionary-i-ching-mobile-app/
lol. It just goes to show you they have an app for everything. If they have a Jewish siddur app, then an I Ching one shouldn't surprise me I guess.
DeleteI do wonder who takes it serious. It seems most people read their horoscope for entertainment. Others are very serious about it.
DeleteI think a particularly attractive tradition in Confucianism is The Content of Deliberate Tradition. Some of the strengths are Jen, where you "do not do unto others what you would not want others to do unto you". So treat others with respect. Jen is the ideal relationship. There is also Chun tzu which is humanity at it best. There is also Li which means propriety, it is a model on how to act and not to lie. It says respect brings harmony and balance. There is also Te and Wen. Wen which refers to the art of pace.
ReplyDeleteCertainly all virtuous practices. I find a lot of Confucius sayings very worthy of reflection.
DeleteDavid, Christina, Deirdre, and Aleya--
ReplyDeleteThanks for joining me online this morning. Many good observations--and, slowly, I'll figure out what can (and can't) be done well with online discussion. See you all in class on Monday--or (perhaps) at the synagogue service tonight at 6:00. Not quite sure I'm going to be there, but I'm going to try.
This was a good on-line discussion. Sorry I missed it. I agree that we all need to be more respectful to each other, and that we need to take personal responsibility for our actions. I've always liked quotations, and I think Confuscianism has a lot of good ideas and things to think about. I read something interesting today about how there's a new disease called "Milk and Cookies". It's caused by parents giving their children too many treats, especially right before bed. We really need wisdom so we don't "kill our kids with kindness". Hurray for common sense!
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